Performance, Play & Mindfulness: What Running Can Teach You

Meant to Move Episode #25

Summary

In this conversation, Vanessa Leone and Rory discuss the challenges and benefits of running and breathwork. Vanessa shares her struggles with running, while Rory, a breathwork coach, emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between jogging and running. They explore the mental and physical benefits of running, including mindfulness and emotional release. Rory highlights the significance of nasal breathing for better performance and hydration. They also touch on the importance of patience, progressive overload, and the role of music in enhancing the running experience. The conversation concludes with Rory’s advice to lace up and enjoy the process

Transcript

Vanessa Leone (00:01.264)

Hello Rory, welcome to Meant to Move, nice to have you.

Rory (00:06.146)

Good to be here. Good to see you again. Thank you.

Vanessa Leone (00:08.028)

Yeah, thank you. Team today, I’m going to talk about one of the topics that is definitely not close to my heart that I find absolutely so bloody challenging, but I have so many clients who who engage in it and it is of course running. Now, Rory is also a breathwork coach, so we’re going to talk a little bit of both, but I wanted to start with running and my question is a bit different, I think.

When people say they’re going to go out for a run, do you think that most people are talking about running or jogging? And is there a difference?

Rory (00:49.806)

What a question to start on. I’ve never thought about that, if I’m being brutally honest. I think most people jog. I think jog gives connotations of more of a relaxed, zone-to, steady state activity. So I think most people go out jogging. I think, diving a slightly deeper into that question, I think there’s a difference between training and exercising.

if it’s a are you going for a run or a jog? I think most of us go for most of us go for a jog and I think that’s the way it probably should be. I don’t think I don’t think we need to take it too seriously. In the running world two things I feel have happened quite a lot recently. Run clubs have become very popular which is cool for some people. I’d rather not go to that but anyway and then I think some people have made

running look quite intimidating. I follow certain Instagram pages, Instagram accounts, individuals who have made it this inaccessible, unattainable, almost arrogant look, feel, tone of voice. Whereas at the end of the day, running or jogging is meant to be fun. We’re meant to enjoy it. It’s meant to good for us. Get outside and just move the body.

Vanessa Leone (02:15.6)

think that’s a great way to answer that because I have this battle obviously with clients who we train. And I think that making that distinction between jogging and running and exercising and training is quite useful when we’re talking about something that will classify as an umbrella term like running. Because I think that for myself, that’s where

almost the intimidation starts straight away, right? Someone was like, I’m just going out for a run and automatically people like, I can’t run, right? And they get that, that automatic kind of like put the brakes on kind of thing. And I want to talk about and explore a little bit about your journey with running and kind of what it’s done. But for most people, I think you said like zone two jog, can you explain a little bit more about kind of what that looks and feels like?

Rory (03:13.166)

Yeah, it shouldn’t be hard. It shouldn’t be challenging. It should be conversational. So everyone’s conversational pace is different. It should be relaxed, maybe a little bit intentional. You still want to be moving the body at decent pace to get the heart rate to 130 to 150 beats per minute. Nothing too hectic or intense. But that shouldn’t feel intimidating.

You know, I’m, you I’ll eat my words here because I’m going to go for a run after this or a jog. And to be brutally honest, I cannot be arsed. I cannot be bothered. I just had one of those days, one of the, you know, yesterday was a bit stressful. I just, um, I don’t want to do it, but I know I’ll feel happier for doing it and I will be proud of myself for doing it as well. So yeah, it shouldn’t be intimidating. It should be relaxed. It should be, um, um, conversational pace.

And if it helps to find a friend or a pal who is at a similar pace ability to you, do that as well. Often for my longer runs, if I’m not in the right head space and I can’t be bothered doing it, I’ll just shoot off loads of messages to all my pals. Say, right, who wants to come for a run with me? Because I’m just not in the right head space. I don’t want to do this. But knowing…

that I’m doing it with someone else and just having a chat and having a yarn can be really fun. And it’s a good time to catch up. If you go for a 40 minute jog or 30 minute jog, you’re one on one with a friend as opposed to sitting in a pub and smashing a few beers. You can do that after.

Vanessa Leone (04:54.214)

great recovery. didn’t actually mean that, friends.

Rory (04:57.728)

No, neither do I. do not recommend that. Do a good recovery. Finish your run, do your breath work, get your protein in, have a good sleep.

Vanessa Leone (05:05.912)

goodness. I like this tangent. I like where we’re going with this. for yourself, you’ve mentioned to me before, I know a little bit about the behind the scenes of what running does for you mentally. And you just spoke about it then you said, you can’t be arsed, but you’re going to do it anyway. What does running or jogging or exercise, like what does that give you pre post and after your run? Sorry, pre during and post run.

Rory (05:34.382)

Yeah, got you. Yeah, think they’re just a quick bit of reference for the listeners here. I’ve done some pretty weird shit and like, you know, I’ve run 250 kilometres in deserts in Chile. I’ve run 200 kilometres in Kyrgyzstan in the mountains. So it’s some really long races, but I think there can often be a connotation or a perception that, you know, I want to be this nutcase, crazy individual who, you know, wants to push his mind and body to the absolute limit.

I’m not really like that. Running for me is mindfulness. It’s curiosity. It’s exploring. Exploring the world around me, but also the world internally. I learn so much about my thoughts, my feelings, my emotions when I run. And I actually release a lot of my emotions when I run. I cry a lot when I’m running or jogging. So if anyone is running the Eastern suburbs and sees me crying in Rose Bay, I’m fine. Don’t worry. Don’t.

check into me, I’m okay, I’m happy. So yeah, it’s definitely, you know, and I kind of, was facetious and slightly joking earlier about the whole Run Club scene, which I do think is great generally. But you know, I’m much more of that solo, introverted, independent runner. And I want to explore my emotions, my thoughts, my feelings, but also the world around me, the mountains, the deserts, bush, you know, everything. yeah, it’s…

Yeah, it takes me to some interesting places, physically, mentally and emotionally.

Vanessa Leone (07:06.332)

That’s really cool. And I think for me, that’s a great distinction chatting to you about, about this, because I know that you can get into the science and we’ll kind of go there in a little bit. But I often think that a lot of running coaches, like you said, really focus on, okay, you’ve got to be at this, hurry, you’ve to do this, you know, you’ve got to train like this. And, and basically what you’ve just kind of said to me there is like,

This is so much bigger than just running. And I think that’s such a great way to frame it, particularly for people who don’t necessarily want to, you know, run 250 Ks in the desert, who just want to do it for health and longevity. Coming into it with that mindset of like, I don’t have to achieve, I don’t have to be anything out, you know.

or try to push myself to that point, I can just look through the trees and find the nice things in nature. I think that’s really underrated.

Rory (08:15.054)

I agree. I think, you know, I think platforms like Strava, for example, and or social media have slightly tarnished our ability to just go for a jog and just go for a run. And, know, you don’t have to tell every fucking person that you went for a run. You know, you just just do it. It’s, you know, and and I would encourage, you know, I’ve been running for, I guess, competitively and seriously for five years.

So I guess I do know a little bit about it, but I just encourage people to just get out, lace up your shoes and go out, you know, get your body moving forward, you know, see the sun coming through the trees, feel the wind on your body. You know, that’s, that’s living. That’s going to benefit how you feel and, and, and how you process the world around you. So it’s, yeah, we can get a bit serious. We can get a bit, bit stuck in our own head, but you know, when you bring it back to the, the, the simple.

basics of what it is. You’re just putting right foot in front of left, left foot in front of right, and you’re just going to do something that betters yourself. And, you know, we can talk about the science later if you’d like to, but, you know, the more you do something in conscious stress, the better you will get. So for anyone listening, if you want to get better at running or jogging, just do it. Just do it. Repeat it over days, over weeks, over months, years, and you will get better. You will get faster. The heart rate will get lower. It will get easier.

I never once thought I’d be able to run 100 kilometres. Now, truthfully, that doesn’t actually scare me. I’ve got a 100k race in about four or five weeks. I’m like, yeah, cool. I’ve got to pack my bags and go do another one. So yeah, it’s an interesting one.

Vanessa Leone (09:59.846)

That’s very cool. That’s very cool. Before we touch on a little bit of the science and what it takes to kind of get to those lengths, my mentor, he comes on this show once a month and he said to me that running when you were a kid was, know, is and was one of the most exhilarating things that you could do. All right. It’s play. It’s fundamentally like, you you literally, like you said, you feel the wind in your face and

While I don’t enjoy jogging, my hypermobile body tends to disform more than it lacks to when I’m jogging. I really like to run, like sprint. And that feeling of exhilaration, I think is kind of a little bit of what you’re alluding to there. And I’m curious, do you feel that? Like that kind of like, I’m playing like kid kind of thing.

Rory (10:58.894)

Massively. I love that you said that word play. It’s very much how I feel when I trail run. that is predominantly what I compete in and the races that I take part in are trail races. I’m not that interested in running on a road. I find it quite boring to be honest. But the play aspect is so important. And as we got older, we forget to play. I think, I know you know me pretty well, but the people listening are probably realizing that I…

go down lot of segues when I speak because I get excited and my brain just goes 100 miles an hour. But it’s very much like BJJ, know, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has gained in popularity, I believe, is because, you know, men and women just being playful again. You know, as we get older, why do we reduce our volume of play? You know, I think we all get serious. You put on a suit, put on the tie and, you know, we march our way into the city and look at me, I’m so serious. Like, fuck man, just play. Like, what’s the point?

We’re meant to laugh, meant to have a bit of fun, get out in nature. You know, when I’m running in the mountains, you’re kind of splashing your way through puddles, you’re splashing your way through little rivers, then you’re hiking up a hill, you’re flying downhill. You know, this brings you back or brings me back to my kind of childhood and that inner child, which we all have. You just got to find it and bring it out.

Vanessa Leone (12:20.604)

Mm, that’s great. Now I think this is such a really nice start to something that I think can get quite technical, like you said, and I’m all for the technical aspects of it. think it’s, you know, it’s that side of it, know, nerd brain comes out. That’s kind of fun and cool. But I, I’m really glad that you brought up this side of it because yeah, to me, those people are like, people will say the same to me. Yes, you’re crazy. Who likes sprinting?

Like sprinting is exhilarating. Like you feel like death after a few, but good kind of death. Like I really achieve something when I, when I get to that pace and you can feel yourself really moving and I’m no, thank you for sharing, for sharing that.

Rory (13:01.806)

Talk to me a bit about that. So how do you feel when you sprint? Is it the first sprint, second sprint, fifth sprint? What are the feelings and the benefits that you gain?

Vanessa Leone (13:13.35)

Well, for me, I love the feeling of acceleration. That’s really what it is. It’s that starting from complete stop and then you can feel like the power in your body. You can feel how strong you are. And I also like that it’s over quite quickly because I’m definitely not an endurance athlete. I’m fully a power athlete. So that side of it comes into it. And it’s probably the memories in terms of.

You know, I used to run up to the vault and I used to run across the floor and then tumble. So that to me also has its positive connotation. but that feeling when, you know, your lungs are in your mouth and you’re really like trying to get in oxygen as much as you can, cause you’ve just repeat sprinted. I don’t know. There’s just something that, yeah, like you said, you’re so proud of yourself when you’ve done something so hard, you can just really acknowledge.

how good your body feels outside of that.

Rory (14:13.89)

Yeah, that’s weird. I’ll tell you what, there’s two parts of that that I will agree with. I agree with the feeling strong aspect. I think it’s a really nice sensation to feel strong in your body. And that comes down to all the hard work that you’ve done in the past. So to get to that point, you wouldn’t just feel strong automatically if you just sat on the sofa every second of every day. But it’s…

feeling proud that you do feel strong. So I get that. I also do get the biomechanics aspect of moving the body, increasing that stride length, swinging of the arms, even feeling like the tight chest. And so I do get that, but the repeated sprint and then feeling like your lungs and your heart are up in your throat. And then you get that flavour. I very rarely do speed work these days, but that taste in your mind is almost like blood or iron.

Vanessa Leone (15:11.398)

Yep, yep, yep, yep.

Rory (15:13.056)

I always get that and you know, back in the day when I used to do athletics, used to, was sick all the time. So I think I’m fearful of that now. So that’s why I I just run really slow for long distances.

Vanessa Leone (15:23.622)

complete opposite, not neither. It’s just different, right? It’s different, different feelings for different bodies. And that’s also really important to acknowledge as well, I think. but I think, like you said, that running is for everybody. It’s a fundamental pattern that humans are designed to be able to do. And at the end of the day, if I had to jog somewhere, I physically would be capable of doing it. Right. And I think that that’s.

That for me is my distinction of whether I am feeling fit and strong enough in my body is if I get challenged by some of my techno gym competitive colleagues, you who I’m talking about to go on the treadmill and have a bit of a run, I can actually do it. And I think it’s time that we kind of talk a little bit about like the benefits of, you know, when we start to talk about, you know, training for maybe a marathon or a trail run, if, if, people are interested.

Maybe we can make that distinction, but like, how do we start to think about this? Maybe not even physically, because I think the information’s out there, but how do we think about this mentally? How do we prepare? What are we searching for in our body?

Rory (16:37.742)

Yeah, I I’d even bring it back a step to just, you if you want to run a 5k, you know, just if you want to run a 5k or a 10k. Yeah, the general basics and basis of jogging and running, you know, is just moving from a walk, which generally when you walk, you have one foot on the ground at all times.

But then when you run, it’s more of a single leg sport. So just becoming more equipped and strong with that kind of bounding movement. I think for anyone who’s wanting to get into it and take it a more seriously, think of just progressive overload as I’m sure Ness has spoken about this in the past and other podcasts. But I personally wouldn’t walk into the gym and put 100 kilos in the bar and start squatting because I would just crumble and my back would break.

gently over time increase the stress that you put upon the body. So if I was a complete beginner and wanted to run 5k, I’d go out today and run 20 minutes. Then the next day, maybe I’d rest for a day and then I’d run out, Tuesday today, so I’d rest Wednesday. On Thursday, I may be to 25 minutes and just slowly increase it like that. And as I mentioned before, and as I’m sure Ness has to in the past where the more that you do something, the better you get at that thing.

you know, like any skill, you know, it becomes conscious thought to automatic process. So just be patient, give it time, put the work in, put the effort in. Don’t look at Strava. You know, if you’re running like a seven minute per kilometre or 6:30 per kilometre, who gives a fuck? Just do what you have to do to go from A to B. It doesn’t have to be a competition.

Vanessa Leone (18:29.622)

You touched on something here that I’m really passionate about actually. I think that when I see a lot of running programs, Counts to 5k or et cetera, I think that the progression is often too fast and people think that they should be progressing faster than they do. What’s your thoughts on that?

Rory (18:54.178)

Yeah, I completely agree. As soon as you said that, was nodding. Yeah, I feel often in these automatic, less bespoke, unique programs, the stress and the stimulus increases too quickly. But then, you know, I think with running and anything that you put your body under a bit of stress, you’ve just got to have time in the game. You’ve just got to do it for days, for weeks, for months, for years.

And eventually the body builds that tolerance. You know, I would never just go out and try and run a marathon, you know, in the first like two months of running, you know, because my body would break down. You know, I haven’t, I haven’t had the time in the legs to have built strong, robust tendons, ligaments, joints, bones, muscles, you know, all the connective tissue around that stuff as well. So being, being patient, I think is a, is a key attribute as well.

And if you’re not patient, you’ll just get injured and then you won’t enjoy it. So just take your time. You know, I’ve been on this journey now for five years and I’m still learning and I’m still understanding what my body can take. You know, even last year, I think I was running, you know, 60K weeks. This year I’m able to run 100K weeks. So I’ve been able to build that tolerance over five years. Last year I couldn’t, I wouldn’t have, I would never been able to run 100K weeks.

100 kilometre weeks last year and now I can. just the accumulation of five years of work really does build. But to answer your question, I completely agree I think there’s definitely a lot of programs out there, which I do keep my eye out of curiosity, that increase volume too quickly. But you know, if someone wants to go from couch to 5k, then you’ve got to go from A to B in some way, shape or form or capacity, right?

Vanessa Leone (20:49.632)

For sure, look, it’s a super hard balance. And the reason why I say that is, you know, nine times out of 10, I’m seeing the people who come to me injured after they’ve done the run, right? So I question these things a little bit differently. And I am definitely not a running coach. I’m kind of like an accessory coach. And I would say this with a lot of the coaching that I do. People go see the expert in that field, a runner, powerlifter, calisthenics.

And I kind of dabble in just human bodies, right? And so when I see that, the out, like the other side of it, I kind of go, that program’s been interesting. Let’s have a look. And I start to dive into these programs. And I think when you start to get a little bit into running, it’s quite addictive. You know, you get those endorphins, you feel pretty good. And I feel like a lot of people are really resistant to the concept.

of run walking in a race or in a training program or in something. They feel like if they’re not running the entire time that it’s not worth doing, that they’re not achieving something if they’re doing a run walk. And I’m curious, have you ever employed any kind of run walk strategies? Like what’s your take on that?

Rory (22:09.806)

All the time. When I compete in these long distance races, all the time. You’re laughing if you think you can just run for 14 hours straight. I mean, the pros can, but I’m definitely not pro. Yeah, the last race I took part in was 100 kilometres in the Blue Mountains. Any elevation, so any hill, I was just hiking. I was walking, I was using poles. If the poles got annoying, then I put them into the wee pole bag, I don’t know what it’s called.

a quiver I think it is, but I just felt like Legolas every time I brought it out. And then I put my hands on my knees and just kind of marched up the hill. then during the day when it got quite hot, I was struggling to run. Stomach was a bit funny as well. So I was just doing about 100 metre jog, then about 50 metre walk, 100 metre jog, 50 metre walk. even people who are more advanced or

who have been running for a while, still will do a walk, jog and or run. So don’t be afraid to do that at all. It doesn’t make you any less of a person for doing that, for implementing that. even, sorry, let’s just quickly jump in here where we mentioned at the beginning, I think a lot of people when they get into running think that they gotta just go 100 % and they gotta go all guns blazing.

And that was something that really stuck out to me when I started working with a running coach back in 2020 was just how often, how am I trying to say here? 80 to 90 % of my runs are just super easy. know, in and out through my nose, I’ve got some like chilled music in, you know, listening to The Killers yesterday, you know, it’s pretty, you know, nothing R &B, house music. It’s just pretty steady state stuff.

But that was something that I really took away from working with a great running coach is just how much of the training plan, the block is just steady state stuff. So don’t think that, you know, you have to be pouring with sweat and panting out your mouth every run, cause it’s just the polar opposite.

Vanessa Leone (24:25.852)

I’m so glad that you brought that up, like so glad, because that’s where I think that those injuries start to creep in. And it doesn’t creep in straight after the session. It creeps in four, five, six, 10 times after you’ve done those sessions. After you’ve done those, like, I’m just really going to push it. I really want to get a PB on this Strava run that I’ve seen everybody else do. And I’m going to feel really accomplished when I get this PB. And not to say that don’t achieve ever.

I’m not saying that. I think there’s this, like you said, is this really challenging balance to find that edge where you can have enjoyment, where you can keep it at a good level and then find when your body is working well enough to give yourself that push and that drive forward. How would you say that you strategize for yourself to get to those levels?

Rory (25:24.846)

Patience, patience over time, trusting the process, understanding the outcome that I’m looking to achieve. For example, I’ve got a marathon coming up. I’m not going to just get in the treadmill today or tomorrow and start running at marathon pace. I know that there’s things, for no better words, there are things that have to happen before I can do that.

I’ve got to build it up. I’ve got to be patient. I’ve got to still continue focusing on that zone too, building that base, have a nice strong, solid base, strong muscles, doing all the accessory work as well, the single leg work, everything else that comes with it as well. it’s, yeah, it’s definitely not a sprint, it’s a marathon. Take your time.

Vanessa Leone (26:20.474)

Yes, yes, for sure.

Rory (26:22.702)

But I think we live in this world where everyone’s fucking quick wins and quick fixes and anything to do with your body, anytime that you want to develop the body, there’s no such thing. You and I have been in this game for long enough now that we understand it, we get it, and it’s, I used to look up, I probably said this to you Ness, but when I was like 14 or 15 trying to get into training, I used to look up like the best exercise to build your chest, the best exercise.

to build your legs. It’s like, just fucking do squats, do deadlifts, do bench press over and over and over again. And then eventually, hey, you got some good legs on you. It just takes time.

Vanessa Leone (27:05.017)

Yeah, yes. Wholeheartedly agree. And that’s why I’m really bad on Instagram with my own training, because it looks the same pretty much most of the time, everybody.

Rory (27:16.108)

Well, you just reminded me actually, you mentioned running programs earlier, and we were talking about how they progress the stress and stimulus too quickly. And I think it’s become slightly dangerous where a lot of individuals are trusting said person on social media because they’ve done said things, but that person may not be qualified enough.

or experienced enough or smart enough to actually be selling that program. The world of influencers these days, you have a following and they want to capitalize from a commercial perspective. It’s just dangerous. there’s a lot of people out there selling programs, but are there a lot of quality programs? No. Are there a of quality coaches? Yes, but you’ve got to look and you’ve got to find the right coach for you.

Vanessa Leone (28:11.74)

I agree. I agree. And don’t go with the first coach that you look at. Like have, take your time. Just, you know, shop around a little bit. I think that you, you know, you might find some that are similar, but go with the one that you feel like has a good message as well as training program. I think that that’s, you know, finding one that resonates with your values is really important as well.

Rory (28:37.166)

100%. And, you know, my coach, Greg Pearson, you know, I’ve been him, I’ve been with him since 2020. You know, we’ve done some great things together. I like him for a number of reasons, just to be open for people here. I get on well with him as a friend. You know, he’s the kind of person I can just call and we can chat about things. I really like the way he programs. It makes my life a lot more simple. He programs onto a platform called Training Peaks. I then look at my Garmin or Apple Watch, whatever I’m…

wearing and training with. The program is then set onto the watch. I don’t have to think about it. I just do what is there. Then every week he sends feedback via Loom, this online kind of video platform. And then I listen, interpret it, and then we go through it. yeah, that’s worked for me over the last kind of five years. But I know there’s coaches that work in a slightly different format, but I’ve just, I’ve enjoyed that structure.

And you know, from a running coaches are good for a lot of things. I’m sure, Ness you can jump in here as well, where I’ve got quite a few things happening in life as we all do. And the last thing I want to be doing is thinking about a program or a plan. And I just like being told what to do. Then I’ll do it. You know, it’s like classic accountability, right? Having an accountability coach, but also, you know, that’s one aspect, but then also they know what they’re doing. This is, they live and breathe this. They do it every single day to, you know, if it’s a,

good coach, they have hundreds of people on their books. So, you know, when you do something over and over and over again, Monday to Friday, you know, get pretty good at it. So there’s a bit of trust and credibility there as well.

Vanessa Leone (30:16.476)

No, I wholeheartedly agree. One thing that you did mention before that I’d love to go into is that you talked about for 80 % of your runs, you’re pretty relaxed, you’re pretty casual, and you’re nose breathing.

Rory (30:33.032)

Mmm, you picked that bit up, didn’t you?

Vanessa Leone (30:36.058)

Always, always mate. Let’s talk about nose breathing and running. Do you think, like where do you think most people, if they’re going out for a jog, are they even realising how they’re breathing?

Rory (30:45.198)

Let’s do it.

Rory (30:55.022)

No, no, and I don’t blame them. You know, I never really, I never thought there was a difference between nasal breathing and mouth breathing until 2027. It’s 2027? We’re not even in 2027. Hey, God, that’s what happens when I try and sound smart. I just make mistakes. I never knew the difference between nasal breathing and mouth breathing until

Vanessa Leone (31:07.736)

in the future, you’ve come back from the future.

Rory (31:22.35)

2017 when I first got into breath work conscious breathing for mental health, physical health, wellbeing, performance. thought breathing was breathing. We breathe in, we breathe out and it does its thing. I then started looking at the science, the literature, the information out there and realizing there was actually ways to breathe day to day 24 seven during wakefulness and sleep, but also how we’re breathing whilst running is incredibly important. So for example,

If you are mouth breathing whilst running, there’s a great paper, a great study came out showing that the participants lost 42 % moisture compared to nasal breathing. I.e. if you your nose to breathe compared to your mouth, you’ll stay hydrated for longer. And hydration, as I’m sure we all know, is very important for survival, but also performance. You know, that’s one example. Another example is when you breathe in through your nose, you slow the breath down.

We know that less breaths per minute will actually increase oxygen delivery. So less is more. It’s called the Bohr effect. What else is in nose, nose also picks up a gas called nitric oxide. So as you breathe in, you breathe NO into the lungs. NO helps as a vasodilator. So opening up the blood vessels as opposed to vasoconstriction. When you have more dilated blood vessels that helps distribute oxygen around the body so it’s more readily available to the working tissues, the working cells.

So they were two, three, four, I can’t even remember how many I said there, but there were a few examples of the benefits of nasal breathing compared to mouth breathing when running, when performing.

Vanessa Leone (33:01.032)

So important and I kind of, I think I’d mentioned this to you in the past is I had a tiny little chapter in one of my textbooks about the Bohr effect back when I was doing my exercise science degree and then it kind of never got mentioned ever again and only until recently we’ve started to see so many professionals and literature talk about the benefit of it. But I even think from a

mindfulness capacity. And if we’re looking at, we’ve been talking about achievement and things like that. I live on the Bay run. Sorry. It’s a nice seven and a half K ish trail. Lots of people run it. And me being the movement nerd that I am, I just walk along it and just watch people run. Of course. I know. Anyway, I won’t go into it. I’m just curious. I’m always fascinated.

And the best runners that I see, they just have an ease about them. They don’t even look like they’re trying and they’re often going faster than everybody else. They have this posture where their head is just like directly over their body and everything kind of goes in sequence. Now, I think in my personal opinion, in the experience that I’ve done and just starting to coach my runners with breath.

Breath is the single most transformational thing for someone’s posture when they run. What do you think about that?

Rory (34:37.262)

Yeah, 100%. You know, there’s a number of segues I could go down, but number one is functional breathing has a direct correlation to functional movement. So if you’re breathing in a functional optimal pattern through your nose, lighter, slower, deeper, utilizing the diaphragm, creating that intra-abdominal pressure, that spinal stability, you’ll be able to move more efficiently and more effectively as well. It also reduces your risk of injury. So there’s a lot of benefits there.

Yeah, you’re so right though. And I’m a bit perverted by the way that I watched people run as well. It gets a bit and breathe. It gets a bit strange when you’re in Centennial Park and watching how someone’s running and breathing. But you do see the people that are breathing through their nose will look the most relaxed. The people that breathe through their mouth look the most stressed. And it actually makes sense. know, nasal breathing will help lower the heart rate. Mouth breathing will actually increase the heart rate. So there’s a lot of

There’s a lot of benefits to the mouth and lot of detrimental, sorry, a lot of benefits to the nose and lot of detrimental effects to the mouth.

Vanessa Leone (35:40.73)

Yeah, no, that’s, it’s fascinating because, you talked about how it kind of induces a bit of stress and you obviously, you just, you kind of mentioned that you started breath work from a mental health perspective. And it’s interesting, you started breath work and then you got into running and obviously the running is, has gotten to the mental health. A lot of people do it the other way around, I think, not, not to say either it’s bad or good or whatever, but that’s quite fascinating that.

you figured out that if you control your breath, if you understand your breath, you can control your stress. Can you give us a little bit more insight into that and then how would you apply that to running?

Rory (36:24.162)

Yeah, I guess just understanding the fundamentals, the basics of breathing and what happens when we breathe. Because the way that you breathe during wakefulness and sleep will have a direct correlation to the way that you breathe during exercises and training. So if I were to breathe 24-7 like this.

in and out through my mouth, what do you think is gonna happen when I run? The exact same, just in and out through the mouth, but a little bit faster. And that’s gonna increase that nervous system stress that’s gonna increase my heart rate, which we don’t want. you know, if I’m ever, I don’t train people to run, I teach and train a lot of people through breath work and breathing. And I always recommend starting off with the foundations and basics of breathing, understanding how to breathe optimally at rest.

and then implementing that into running. Now, wouldn’t, I’m sure we might talk about this at some point, but mouth taping when you sleep, for example, when I recommend people mouth tape when they sleep, I recommend that they pop it on whilst watching TV in the evening, just to, I’m sure we’ve spoken about this as well in the past, just to get a bit more comfortable with that new feeling, that new sensation, as opposed to, right, I’m gonna bed, chuck the mouth tape on, let’s get the fuck to sleep.

And your body’s like, Whoa, what is going on here? Like this is new. This is different. This is strange. This is weird. So just understanding what kind of tools, tips, techniques that you can use to, help the feeling, help the sensation. So for example, bringing it back to running, I wouldn’t recommend someone suddenly starts trying to nasal breathe whilst running because it’s going to be a bit hard, but challenging, more so focusing on every day, you know, when they’re walking to the bus, when they are

they’re cooking, when they’re sitting behind the desk, when they are, whatever it may be, being mindful and being aware of how they’re breathing, then implementing that to running. And again, if you’re easy running six minute per kilometre, normally in and out through your mouth, as soon as you start implementing nasal breathing, it may be 630. You might have to go back a step to then have two steps forward.

And that’s exactly what I had to do. Back in 2019, 2020, when I started it, I slowed the pace right down. And I was like, well, the science is there. I’m going to trust the process. I’ll see what happens here. I trusted the process and I managed to, I can run at like a 430 pace now, all nasal breathing, which I could never have done a couple of years ago. So it’s just trusting the process.

Vanessa Leone (39:04.972)

for people who aren’t sciency, that’s very fast. It’s very fast and nasal breathing. For context, could you give us a quick breakdown of maybe like a five zone model of different breaths that we might take? And just what I found really interesting when you started doing the breaths is that if you’re watching this on video or if you’re not,

watch the clip, I’ll make one. You can actually physically see the shoulders start to lift when you breathe through your mouth. And then so many runners have neck pain. So many runners have back pain and we start to wonder why this is the case. And you can really see how much more effort it actually takes to take a breath like that. Right? So how, how can we, if I’m, you know, just trying to figure out how to breathe well, how do I breathe in five zones?

Rory (40:04.29)

Yeah, well just on that last point you said there’s an energy cost associated with breathing. know, so if you’re to breathe fast through the mouth, which is more upper chest, shoulders, you’re using more oxygen and it’s going to those muscles as opposed to the muscles that you need to run, i.e. your legs. So if you can reduce the effort to breathe, breathe less, breathe slower, breathe deeper through your nose.

then the oxygenated blood can go to the legs and then you can perform better for a longer duration. So yeah, you’re bang on about the energy cost aspect as well. What was your question? I’ve forgotten.

Vanessa Leone (40:43.516)

That’s, uh, I forgot to, don’t worry, five zones. Can you, can you explain how people, uh, could ideally breathe? You know, like we’re sitting, I would call this zone zero or one pretty chill. What’s, what’s, what’s good to breathe like this. And then if I’m going like, you know, Vanessa repeat sprint max, what should I look like on a breathing?

Rory (41:06.594)

Yeah, perfect. So I call this a breathing gears, like a gear for the car. Gear one, zone one is relaxed, steady state, and out through your nose. You’re sitting behind the computer, you’re not stressed. In and out through your nose, it’s light, it’s gentle, it’s quiet, it’s effortless, just in and out through your nose, nice and rhythmic. If you were to close the laptop, get outside for bit of a walk.

you’re increasing from zone one to zone two, i.e. gear one to gear two. It can be a bit more powerful through the nose in, relaxed through the nose out.

So you’re driving the oxygen in and just releasing the carbon dioxide. If we move from a walk into, let’s say a steady jog, a nice relaxed jog, which is going into zone three, which is gear three, increasing the intensity, the effort a little bit, we’re gonna go power in, power out.

just a little bit faster. We’re still focusing the breath deep. It’s still intentional. It’s not short. It’s not shallow. Then we’re moving up to gear four. This is increasing the effort output even more, moving more into anaerobic, generally shorter in duration. Then we can go in and out through your mouth.

Then as you go into gear five, which is, you your 10 to 20 second sprint on some kind of erg, my idea of absolute hell, but Ness’s idea of heaven, which is weird, but whatever. So that is fast in and out through your mouth. You know, we’re talking powerful. I’m not going to do it because could break people’s ears, but it’s fast in and out through your mouth. It’s intentional. It’s purposeful. Fast breath out to release the carbon dioxide and then a fast breath in. And you can even hear my voice. I’m starting to ramp up as well.

So it’s effort, it’s energy. But as soon as you finish that sprint, you know, kind of like ski for whatever reason, maybe it brings me back to my youth skiing and the French Alps. When you’re skiing, if you’re going to say a 20 second sprint, then as soon as you finish that 20 second sprint, then you stop, mouth breathing, come back to your nose.

Rory (43:20.046)

Okay, and then the intention as you know, is to drive the heart rate up during the sprint and then bring it right back down as quick as you can. Often with performance, it’s not how well can you perform, but how fast and how efficiently can you recover. And nasal breathing is really, really, really important for that.

Vanessa Leone (43:37.468)

Excellent, thank you. That was a great kind of, you know, I think that’s a great way to kind of leave people understanding of where to practice. Personally, I find gear three nasal super challenging. That’s where I think that I have the most room for improvement and probably a lot of people I would say, because you’re just breaking that cusp of aerobic, anaerobic, body’s, you know, pushing that threshold and then in intensity and

That’s the zone I think for runners, joggers, whatever you want to call yourself. I think that that’s the money right there. Am I, what do you think?

Rory (44:18.914)

Yeah, I would agree. I would probably recommend, you know, on the topic of jogging, I’d recommend more people stick around gear two, nice steady state in and out through your nose. If you really are looking for adaptation and if you’re training as opposed to exercising and you’re pushing for goals, marathons, whatever it may be, I would say gear three is definitely that zone to play around with.

I did the Sydney Marathon last year with my mouth taped, all nasal breathing, and I was definitely into that gear three, at times into that gear four as well. Obviously not mouth breathing, because my mouth is taped, but it was fast. It was fast. So yeah, would say gear three definitely if you’re looking to perform and looking for that adaptation. Gear two, if you’re just out for a jog.

Vanessa Leone (45:12.838)

I think though, your best adaptation comes from gear two, which would help that gear three, I’m assuming. So that time that you spend that patience in working in that gear two would help that gear three, right? Cool.

Rory (45:25.56)

Completely, yeah, I definitely agree.

Vanessa Leone (45:29.208)

Excellent. Last question. I call myself a movement therapist and I think that there’s a lot of things that people can do for therapy that helps their life, you know, movement or otherwise. Obviously we know that you love to run, but is there anything else that you would do or that you’ve recommended that’s movement therapy that’s associated with this that is really helpful for you?

Rory (46:05.568)

a lot of things, to be honest. I’m trying to sift it down to kind of one or two. You know, something that you and I have connected on in the past is music. You know, so I don’t know if that answers the question, but I get a lot from music and sound. And it’s something I’ve become more interested in over the years because of my curious mind. You know, I…

I knew I liked certain songs and certain sounds, but I didn’t know why I liked them. And now as I’m getting a bit older, I’m looking into why, know, so the, you know, the, the various hertz of sound, the various speeds of, of tracks, you know, the, BPM that tracks are made at. you know, maybe not movement per se, but you know, movement of sound waves. So the

the sound waves from the speaker into my ears. And one of my favourite things to do, know, right on cue, my dog walks into the room. One of my favourite things to do is just to, you know, in the evening, if I’ve had a busy day or just feeling a little bit overwhelmed, it’s just to dim the lights, put some candles on, play some relaxing music and just cuddle my dog. You know, that for me is so rejuvenating and I get a lot of energy from that. A lot of my work.

as I know yours is very extroverted and a lot of our life is very extroverted. So for me to kind of gain that energy back, sometimes I just got to be on my own, play some beautiful music and cuddle my dog.

Vanessa Leone (47:40.984)

sounds like a great life lesson. We can hear the dog, I’m happy for it. Let the dog, let the dog come in and play. Go ahead puppy. Now, I will say this, I’m a big advocate for music, sound healing, all of that. My close friend Emma, she’s actually going do an episode about music and how it affects us physically, mentally, all of that kind of stuff. So I wholeheartedly resonate with that.

Rory (47:44.558)

He’s scratching around.

Vanessa Leone (48:10.714)

That’s why so many people exercise to music. Honestly, it’s so linked. It’s very cool. No, thank you for sharing that.

That is where I’m going to leave you today. If people need to get in contact with you, we’ve got that all on the show notes. Is there any last thing that you would like to say?

Rory (48:29.718)

Nah, I’ve really enjoyed this. Thank you for the chat. Like you’re always a, it’s always a pleasure. And yeah, you asked great questions. I’ve, I’ve appreciated this and I hope people will gain something from it. And don’t be afraid if you’re new to running, jogging, get out, lace up the shoes, you’ll always feel better for doing it. You’ll be proud of yourself. I know after this chitchat with you, I’m going to go lace my shoes up and I’ll be proud of myself for doing it as well. So now I’ve enjoyed this. Thank you. And I look forward to catching up with you soon.

Vanessa Leone (48:59.472)

Yeah, thanks. I’ll see you soon.

Rory (49:01.41)

Bye.