Meant to Move Episode #28 with Emma Masters
Summary
In this episode, Vanessa Leone and her group therapist Emma discuss the profound impact of sound healing and music therapy on wellness and movement. They explore the science behind sound healing, the effects of vibration on the body, and the instruments used in sound healing practices. The conversation delves into the biological responses to music, the emotional connections we have with different genres, and how to create motivating playlists for movement. Emma emphasizes the importance of finding the right sound healing practitioner and the benefits of sound healing in promoting relaxation and emotional release.
Transcript
Vanessa Leone (00:01.76)
Hello, my group therapist, she’s back, hey Emma.
Emma M (00:06.19)
Okay, so many minutes between visits.
Vanessa Leone (00:10.888)
Many minutes, many minutes that won’t seem like that many minutes if you’re a listener, but I’m very glad to have you on this space and I already feel more calm and excited. And this topic has been a long time coming that I think that we wanted to talk about. Very, very cool because it’s big and it’s vast and we’re going to talk music, which is huge, but then we’re also going to
Emma M (00:28.266)
Yes. Yeah.
Vanessa Leone (00:40.062)
like, sidestep into sound healing, which I think perhaps may be a good place to start. We’ll be like, we have this huge umbrella term of music, but then we’re seeing all these, you know, things come out about sound healing. What would you say is the difference between just, you know, music and sound healing?
Emma M (00:48.942)
Okay, yeah.
Emma M (00:55.98)
Yes.
Emma M (01:09.518)
You know what, that’s a really good question because…
I think the only answer is intention, really, you know, because I think that there’s so much magical gold in music alone, right? And especially what we’ll get into later around using it in an intentional way and say a group fitness class or, but even all the way through to the response the human body has to music at say a music festival or, you know, in the nightclub. And so I think sound healing,
Vanessa Leone (01:17.056)
Mmm.
Emma M (01:43.566)
has just more intention to it, if that makes sense. Because if you’re going to a sound healing event or you’re going to visit a sound therapist, et cetera, et the intention is very clear, right? It’s for healing. And so you’re walking into that space with that in mind. And then of course, depending on the lens that you take and how woo you are willing to be open to,
Vanessa Leone (02:00.736)
Mmm.
Vanessa Leone (02:12.052)
Wooed
Emma M (02:12.942)
how Wooed you are willing to be, then of course then that you could get down to the nitty-gritty specifics of certain tones and frequencies and how they directly affect the body and the organs, etc. And so I think it’s simplest term, we’re 70 % water, right, as a human being. And you’ve only got to look at, I’m sure everybody’s seen one of these, when you play music or a note or a frequency to water and you can see the ripple effects and the amazing sort of
geometric designs that kind of come about. Well, if that’s happening to the water that we can see in front of us, then it’s a good chance that’s happening to the water inside of us too, right? We’re 70 % water. So you can look at sound healing as this way of playing very specific frequencies and sounds in order to deliberately affect your internal body in a way that’s positive, right? Like fine tuning the cells within your body to make them healthier. And if you want to look down the sort of chakra,
fine tuning the different energy centers of the body depending on the frequency and the sound being used so that they become more enlightened. so, yeah, depending on the lens that you want to take in regards to what’s happening in a sound healing, that’s up to you and your beliefs and the way that you want to view it or perhaps even the way that you’ve experienced it in a sound healing, right? Much like when we talked about breath work, sometimes you’ve got to experience it to understand it, right? And so for…
Vanessa Leone (03:32.448)
Yup.
Emma M (03:40.288)
For our listeners out there, maybe that’s an open call to you to go and experience it. But I think on the most pure scientific level, we have the way that the vibrations affect the water within us. We have the way that we can now prove that certain sounds affect brainwave states. That’s another incredible thing to look at. Like you’ve all maybe heard of binaural beats that can help shift our brainwaves into theta or alpha, which of course is linked to relaxation, meditation, flow.
And so looking maybe at just even those three things, the vibration, the effect on brainwave state and the fact that we’re water can kind of help answer the question around what could potentially be happening when we go to a sound healing.
Vanessa Leone (04:23.952)
cool. That’s a lot, right? even if you just… It’s great. Like that was not a rehearsed answer, by the way, humans. was purely Emma just talking about that. That was such a great answer. Thank you. But that’s like for anyone just being like, it’s just a bit of sound healing. Like you’ve given three very distinct, very cool, unique properties that we can automatically go, okay.
Emma M (04:25.439)
Yeah, sorry, that was a lot.
Emma M (04:31.832)
No!
Vanessa Leone (04:51.934)
And I think the one that stood out for me, and it’s just because if people have been listening to the pod, you would have heard O.D. talk about circulation, would have heard him talk about how much water is in the body. And then just recently, he has talked about vibration healing. So this is very, very interesting. So maybe this is a good place to start. And I think that
Emma M (05:19.959)
Yeah.
Vanessa Leone (05:21.63)
you know, from, from OD’s perspective, he’s looking at a therapeutic tool, like a massage gun or a power plate or something like that, that can physically, and I say physically because you can feel it more, right? You can, you can feel the vibration happening and what that does to your body. But I love that visual that you gave of, you know, the ripples in the water and where water, so that happens inside us. Can you like, do you have any more to say about that?
Emma M (05:28.258)
Mmm.
Emma M (05:48.814)
Well, I think when it comes to vibration, there’s just a lot of research going into it now, like OD would have explained. And so they’re even looking at using like sound therapy and sound healing inside hospitals, seeing how that might affect people suffering with Parkinson’s and other diseases and things like that. And also, this is a fun fact that I did research for today because I was like, I wonder what’s going on.
Vanessa Leone (06:08.672)
Mm.
Emma M (06:16.491)
in the world of sound healing that might be kind of a fun fact. NASA is actually using sound therapy at the moment. So astronauts are using binaural beats and sound therapy as tools to help with their sleep and their stress regulation. So that’s really cool. That’s really fun. But yeah, it’s kind of like looking at this idea of resonance and vibration through ourselves and what response they have when that happens. And so whether that is the vibration from a tool like a theragun or the vibration of music through us, can, and then that’s not…
Vanessa Leone (06:29.888)
Mmm, yep.
Vanessa Leone (06:36.458)
Yeah.
Emma M (06:46.83)
not woo right? We can all stand next to a speaker and feel the vibration that it gives off. It’s through our body. Well, that’s happening at just a smaller level when we’re listening to music at a regular volume, right? Or listening to sound at regular volume. So we know that that’s happening just because we might not be able to feel it as strongly as perhaps a Theragun or standing next to loud speaker in a nightclub. And so yeah, I think we just have to remember that we can’t always necessarily see or
directly feel things in the moment, but they are happening in the body, especially our smaller cellular level. And so if we go back to your question, like expanding on this idea of vibration or the way that sound affects water in that way, then we’re like, just because we can’t see it or just because we can’t touch it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I saw someone talking about that other day, which is like, we’re really happy to accept that there’s Wi-Fi and that we’re all connecting our phones or whatever to it and we can’t see.
We can’t see the WiFi in the sky, but we’re all happy to accept that it exists, right? And yet when it comes to maybe vibrational healing through sound, we’re a bit like, that’s woo, that can’t be happening. I think we to remember sometimes we can’t see everything in the way that we expect to.
Vanessa Leone (07:48.704)
Ha
Vanessa Leone (07:57.824)
Yeah.
Vanessa Leone (08:01.92)
Again, a great example to be able to illustrate that beautifully because you’re right, the only way we’re having this conversation right now is through those weird WiFi waves and perhaps, exactly, I love that. Let’s perhaps touch on frequency before we go into the biggest subject of this because it kind of relates to this resonance and vibration.
Emma M (08:13.528)
with Wi-Fi waves. Magical.
Emma M (08:26.264)
Mm.
Vanessa Leone (08:30.664)
which is frequency. And I know specifically you use sound healing tools, use instruments and you use multiple instruments for yourself. Could you talk us through like what you use, what you do that creates these frequencies, vibrations and sounds that stick with people?
Emma M (08:49.966)
I think, you know, there’s, I’m certainly not the creator of any of this, but you’re just going through what you’ve been taught and, you know, courses that you’ve studied through and I guess personal experience too on the way that makes you feel. But obviously one of the most used tools out there are the crystal singing bowls and they’re just beautiful. Obviously there’s another Tibetan singing bowls and lots of other instruments that look and feel similar. And these are tools that have been used since ancient times, right? And if you look back,
Again, much like when we discussed with breathwork, these tools have been used over all ancient civilizations from one country to another. then only now that we can look back and see, wow, everybody was doing kind of a similar thing. And so these ancient civilizations have popped onto the fact that using sound, using vibration, using frequency can have this really beautiful therapeutic effect. And they certainly would have been added digging into it and research. would all be done by trial and error and felt experience.
Vanessa Leone (09:38.687)
Hmm.
Emma M (09:47.264)
Yeah, so singing bowls is something I feel really close to, like one of the first tools that I started using in my sound healings And so they’re pitched to certain musical notes. And then again, depending on how much you want to be wooed, those frequencies are said to be attuned to certain energy centers in the body. So you can play the bowl in the frequency of the heart chakra, for example. And so then you can again bring more intention to the
Vanessa Leone (10:03.444)
Hahaha.
Emma M (10:16.609)
the therapeutic use of sound by going, okay, we’re going to focus on this frequency and this is aligned to the heart. And then perhaps you’re then also drawing your attention to that space and what that means to you. again, what, like we said in breath work, does it matter which way around it is if you’re getting a therapeutic effect by imagining and feeling on any issues or troubles you’re having with love and receiving and giving love and you, and you feel that that resonance is actually helping in that space. Depending if you are just a true believer of that and
Vanessa Leone (10:26.11)
Mmm.
Emma M (10:46.454)
and feel that it really works or it’s somewhat of a placebo effect, does it really matter? that’s the idea of using those different frequencies for different senses in the body. But then you can also use like all different kinds of sounds. I use a rain drum, chimes, and then I also use my voice when I take sound healings which is kind of cool. And I think I’ve been really enjoying exploring. I used to be a singer in musical theater and so now being able to weave.
Vanessa Leone (10:55.328)
Mmm.
Emma M (11:14.348)
that tool into this kind of space has been really fun and daunting. It was very scary the first time I did it. Just given that, you when you’re standing up on stage being a singer, it’s very structured and you’re given a song or music and this is very intuitive and kind of just singing notes and sounds that come through in the moment. So it’s a lot more vulnerable than just singing a song that’s been written for you or that you’ve copied down.
Vanessa Leone (11:21.88)
Ha ha.
Vanessa Leone (11:37.888)
Hmm.
Emma M (11:43.63)
That’s been really interesting too, and just kind of being led by that intuitive part of me, that inner guidance.
Vanessa Leone (11:51.68)
I love where this is going. And I think for people, perhaps, who are like, wow, okay, that was a lot and I didn’t expect it to go there so quickly. Sorry, everybody. Not actually, sorry. What I think you touched on there was really amazing. Like, and I think your journey through music exemplifies
Emma M (12:02.062)
That’s us, sorry.
Vanessa Leone (12:17.652)
what’s like what’s happened and I know your journey, but most people don’t know your journey. And so you talked about musical theater and singing and things like that. And I think that at some stage for everybody, most people find a genre of music that they have an affinity for. And that’s kind of like, it’s interesting. That’s just interesting in itself. Don’t you think like, I like this style of music. Yeah. Like why do I like that? And
Emma M (12:35.19)
and
Emma M (12:40.854)
Yeah, yeah. Why?
Vanessa Leone (12:48.168)
And if we, even if we just bring it back to the traditional health and fitness, you don’t walk into a gym without a soundtrack. You know, like there’s always some kind of music going and perhaps do you want to start with like, you know, just the traditional landscape and what you think that sound does in a gym or even if I’m just at home and I, you know, I want to do a workout, like what, what, what, what are we doing with that music?
Emma M (12:57.154)
Uh-uh.
Emma M (13:15.926)
Yeah, music motivates, right? There’s no denying that. And this is where I’m extremely passionate since we met and even began teaching courses. Music’s been a really strong driver behind the things I want to leave instructors with, which is that music is extremely powerful in terms of a motivating tool. And if you strip it back, we know that music’s extremely important. That’s the number one thing. To us,
and our biology because the biological effect that we get when we listen to music is almost as strong, if you want to put it in that way, as when we’re hunting for food or we’re looking to have sex. So those two things, they’re important to the survival of the human race. Reproducing with another human gives us more humans. And then obviously eating is a sure way that we’re going to survive, right? We need to be able to eat.
Vanessa Leone (13:45.557)
Mm-hmm.
Emma M (14:09.58)
And so we have these strong biological effects when we’re doing those very primal things so that we continue to do them, right? So that we continue to make new babies and so that we continue to eat and don’t die and starve. those hormonal effects have been with us since time began and we’re okay then and they continue to be with us now. Well, it’s very odd then that we get this almost similar, identical, strong biological effect when we listen to music. We get a huge cocktail of hormones released.
when we listen to music and then in particular when we move to music. And then again, even a stronger effect when we move to music in synchronicity. So when we move together to music. So I find that so fascinating. It’s stuff that I’ve been looking at and researching and trying to understand for a really long time. As with all things with me, I think that you have to be open to a certain amount of mysticism too, because we don’t actually know the exact reasons why that happens. But of course there’s lots of theories.
Vanessa Leone (14:42.452)
Mm-hmm.
Emma M (15:07.022)
And probably one of the strongest theories is that when we were back in caveman days and it was very important that we were as a tribe, because if you were a loner in those days, you weren’t just an introvert out on their own having a grand old time, you’re almost probably being chased by some kind of saber-toothed or something and getting killed. So being a part of a tribe was really, really important. And so there is a theory that music was something that brought us together.
So we’d be around campfire, we’d be playing instruments, we might be singing, we’d be moving and dancing. And if that was happening, it meant that we were a part of this cohesive group and that we were protected as opposed to being out on our own. So that’s one deep theory.
Vanessa Leone (15:50.031)
Yep. Share a… Yeah, it’s like sharing that collective experience, right? It’s bonding all of that stuff.
Emma M (15:58.114)
Yeah, but kind of crazy that the music is that kind of glue to that. That’s the part where we really get that strong hormonal response. We’re releasing dopamine, we’re releasing serotonin, oxytocin, sometimes there’s a release of prolactin. So these are all of these kind of hormones that are making us feel closer together, driven, motivated, trusting, bonded. These are big, big hormones, you know, that…
Vanessa Leone (16:02.633)
Yeah.
Emma M (16:24.302)
are usually used for other reasons other than just listening to some good tunes in your headphones, you know? But we’ve all felt that because then if you only think back to any time where not just you listening to music, that often does bring a strong response on through the body. You know, we listen to our favourite tune, we might uplift our spirits, we listen to something that reminds us of a time where we’ve just been dumped by our ex-boyfriend, it might bring us, you know, sadness or nostalgia. But…
I want you to go deeper than that. want you to think of a time where you were moving in synchronicity with others to music and the strong feeling you got then of all of those amazing hormones moving through your body. So prime example might be something like at a festival in front of your favorite DJ or favorite band and you’re all moving together, you’re sweaty, you’re dancing and it feels really primal, right? And then the beat drops and everyone goes wild and you’ve got goosebumps up your arm and then you’re sweating.
hugging these strangers, nobody cares, everybody’s just like really big hugging, sweaty strangers, you know, and the reason that we don’t care is because we’re being flooded with these hormones of trust and connection and love.
And so, yeah, that’s a great example where most probably listeners have felt that rush. And so then, like, guess to bring it back to movement in the way that we bring it back to movement is that you can actually bring that same incredible goosebumps hormonal effect into fitness classes if you get it right with your music choices, which is really, really, really cool.
Vanessa Leone (17:54.677)
Yeah.
Emma M (18:00.878)
to say to you know a lot of students, you know, we don’t listen to a movie without a soundtrack telling us how we should feel, which is kind of strange in itself. Like, like, I you can’t think of one movie where there hasn’t been some kind of soundtrack. But that’s a bit weird, really, isn’t it? Because we don’t walk through life with a soundtrack on telling us, oh, I meant to be sad in this moment, or oh, I meant to be feeling in love in this moment, or I’m going to be scared in this moment.
we watch a movie and that’s exactly what the soundtrack is doing. Yeah, very talented people like Hans Zimmer are creating these incredible soundtracks so that we understand how we should feel or it helps us feel more in that moment, right, towards the movie and the scene. And so if you’re clever as a group fitness instructor, you can actually create that same effect in your classes by providing a music soundtrack to the journey you’re trying to create within your classes.
which I think is really, really cool.
Vanessa Leone (18:58.272)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah, I love all those pieces. And I think that it’s what’s really funny. You mentioned that movie soundtracks is when you watch those clips of of parts of movies that we all know and they have like some wild song backed to it instead. And you’re like, this is bizarre. This is so strange. And if you’ve never seen it, Google it. It’s entertaining. And like you said, the parts of movies that don’t have music.
Emma M (19:17.132)
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Vanessa Leone (19:27.52)
part of it, it’s actually quite intentional. It’s designed to be sat in silence and then it changes again. And if you really pay attention to it, you, will notice when they intentionally use silence and when they use that soundtrack, like you said, but it’s also why sometimes when we walk into a gym or a facility or something like that, or even like a restaurant, right? All restaurants have music on in the background, but if the music doesn’t match,
Emma M (19:50.542)
Mm-hmm.
Vanessa Leone (19:56.904)
what’s happening in the moment you feel this sense of like, jarring, jarring, it’s really like, what’s happening? Like you’ve gone to a romantic, intimate dinner with your partner and then they’re playing like trance music in the back and you’re like, this, this isn’t, this doesn’t work. Yeah, this isn’t it. And, I think that when you start to open yourself up and pay attention to it, you can’t un-
Emma M (20:04.003)
Yeah.
Emma M (20:08.078)
you
Emma M (20:14.562)
This isn’t it. isn’t it. Yeah.
Vanessa Leone (20:26.388)
I don’t want to say unsee it, you can’t unhear it. But I love how you really clearly again, really clearly illustrated that connection. When it comes to exercise and music. Now, this is the really fun part, the biological response. And I know this part, but I want you to tell it because you have a really fun story. So what happens like if we’re if we’re
Emma M (20:28.494)
Mm.
Emma M (20:45.644)
Okay?
Vanessa Leone (20:56.416)
If we want to be motivated, what should I be listening to? What could I be listening to?
Emma M (21:02.67)
So a lot of it’s based around, or some of it’s based around this idea of BPMs of the music, so the beats per minute, so the rate of tempo that’s happening during the music, because we have this wonderful way of adjoining, like, what’s the word I’m trying to think of? We want to resonate with the music that we’re listening to. So that’s called entrainment. Yeah, so what happens when we listen to music?
is that our whole body through this process of entrainment wants to match the music that we’re listening to. So if the music is going faster through its BPMs, its beats per minute, our body automatically also wants to move alongside it. So not only necessarily moving to the beat, so if you’re listening and you’re like, I actually have no rhythm, I can’t move to the beat, that’s not what I mean. It’s more about everything within you, all of your systems wanting to join up with this music. And so that could be that your body just starts to move fast.
not necessarily on rhythm, but move faster so then in turn, your breathing and your heart rate also pick up the pace to match the music that you’re listening to. So yeah, there are funny stories about like supermarkets, for example, using faster paced BPM at the end of the night when they’re trying to get people through and out the doors and then slower, more like, I’m sure you’ve heard it. I feel like every time I go into my local Woolworths, it’s like the soundtrack of my youth. Like it’s always like big.
old school, like really good sing-along, N-sync like there’s some like really good music because when you’re listening to that kind of music, you’re just like joyful, you’re like singing along and dancing. My partner hates it, he thinks I’m crazy, but I will happily do that in supermarket. But you’re gonna shop slower, you’re gonna shop slower because you’re like enjoying that moment, oh, I’m gonna buy this and you’re in a happy mood. So it’s quite purposeful, but then at the end of the day, when they’re like, okay, it’s 15 minutes to closing.
Vanessa Leone (22:43.968)
I would too.
Emma M (22:56.226)
they might pick up the BPMs and make it a slightly different music choice so you move through the aisles and get out quicker. And so, you know, these little moments of using music as motivation can happen everywhere. So yeah, that’s pretty fun, the BPM style of things in terms of why it’s motivating. And then there’s like even there’s a sprinter, I can’t think of his name, but he basically trained to scatman. Excuse me.
Vanessa Leone (23:26.216)
Yes.
Emma M (23:26.22)
to Scatman, if everyone knows that song. And it’s a, can’t remember the exact BPMs off the top of my head, but basically it helped him win his race in a really high up, you know, Olympic level race because he trained to the beat of the music and trying to sprint to Scatman. And so that actually got him, you know, his gold prize. so BPMs can be really powerful in that way. And I’m sure we’ve all felt that and it’s our simplest form if we’ve been out for a jog and we’ve used just the right amount of music where we can really.
Vanessa Leone (23:42.548)
Yeah, yep.
Emma M (23:52.852)
run to the beat of the music or the music motivates us, that’s usually with a certain BPM. Or if you’re in a boxing class, you want that of jammy hip hop style, like a rap music, because it feels better to punch, not only is it a bit aggressive in its style, but also the BPMs are lot better to punch to and find combos to than it would be if you were using something faster and then it suddenly starts
comes a bit like body combat, you you’re kind of like then just kind of just whacking the punches rather than putting power behind your punch. So it’s very deliberate in that way. And that’s why you hear those types of musics in certain settings.
Vanessa Leone (24:30.89)
Hmm. Yeah. The Scatman thing is a hundred percent real. I can’t remember the sprinter’s name, but the Scatman, I think it’s like 150 BPM. I think I’m pretty sure it’s a one or it’s close to a 150 because I recall reading that and going, yes, that makes sense. That’s very cool. so funny. And it’s like, you talked about even just different styles of music. I have a playlist.
Emma M (24:33.966)
No, I have to Google it.
Yeah, let’s look.
Vanessa Leone (25:00.704)
And I’ve had, I have many playlists of BPM on my phone as you would, cause we do. If I want to go for a fast walk, it’s 128 BPM and that 128 BPM just keeps one foot in front of the other. It’s a nice, steady, fast pace. And if you’re walking around the inner West, you will, and you will know if I’m listening to a 128, you got to get out of my way because I am, I am, I’m going to barrel through you at 128 BPM.
And if I’m really into it, it needs to be like a 135. And that’s like, now I’m like kind of sprint walking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. But it’s honestly, it’s so motivating in that respect because it’s almost like you don’t have to think about your pace anymore. When you’re going for a fast walk, know, a walk’s a great time just to let your head space go. But sometimes you don’t want to let your head space go.
Emma M (25:39.04)
walking, speed walking.
Vanessa Leone (26:00.138)
There’s, too many thoughts in there. And I really love getting lost in that beat so that I, I pay attention to the beat and to the music. And then it kind of keeps me on track rather than I have to deliberately focus on keeping myself on track. And I think that that’s what music does with health and fitness in, a, you know, just say in a traditional fitness setting is that it helps, helps you stay on that, on that track.
Emma M (26:23.587)
Yeah.
Vanessa Leone (26:29.514)
That’s cool. I just love it. I find it so interesting.
Emma M (26:33.218)
Yeah, it’s so interesting. there’s many other facets like why my music motivates us. BPM is obviously a big one. Lyric play can be another. So, you know, if you’re listening to a piece of music with really inspiring lyrics, like, you know, Eminem came to mind there, you know, if you’re about to go into the boxing ring and you’re about to do like a big, you know, big fight or, even in a boxing style class, if you’re listening to like some…
dirty Eminem where he’s telling you to lose yourself in the moment, then it’s gonna make you go harder. Or if you’re at a moment where you need to sprint or go fast and the lyrics are kind of talking about inspiration or like being your best or this is everything that you’ve got, or your titanium, like you’re gonna let loose a little bit more. And then of course the manipulation of that music in that moment. using things like big builds and drops, you know, that’s the moment on the dance floor of the DJ.
drops the amazing magical drop in that moment, everyone goes wild. Well, it’s that same feeling as if you’re in an exercise class and you’re building up to something and then there’s a big massive drop, there’s a big build in music. It inspires you to go with it, right? So that’s the moment then where you’re gonna do the 10 burpees or you’re gonna go for the sprint and it’s gonna feel easier than if you’d done it without. And that’s kind of the magic of it really is that in those moments, then the music is actually overriding things like pain receptors in the mind. like you’re actually
feeling less pain and actually able to do far more than if the music wasn’t present. So that’s another cool one. And then I think the other thing to mention is just like the fact that it really helps us access limbic system, which, know, again, there’s so many correlations between breathwork and movement and music. think that’s why there’s so much magic in fitness, right? Because we’re utilizing all of those. But, you know, certain music, et cetera, really helps us get in touch with our
feeling, it’s like opening up or activating the limbic system, the limbic part of the brain, which is our emotion center. And so it can make us feel certain things that, as I said before, might transport you back to a time where you’ve got a memory, or it might just be incredible lyrics and certain musical notes and tones that really bring on that gut-wrenching, heart-wrenching need to cry. And that’s why there’s been many.
Emma M (28:47.79)
in my time that have helped me get through things like breakups or hard times in my life because they just singing the right lyrics and playing the right musical notes. And it’s like therapy, know, just listening to that music and having a good old cry. yeah, music is magic for so many reasons. But I think, yeah, in the context of this podcast and movement therapy, right, it’s actually the magic combination of using all of these tools. If we can use
the music and we can use the movement and we can use the breath and we can use incredible intrinsic words like, wow, what a ridiculous combination to help people really feel something, really access and manipulate nervous system, really help them feel happier and healthier and less anxious and less sad, make them feel connected to people. Like how amazing, these are just such simple tools that can have such a positive effect on the human race.
I get very excited when I talk about these things.
Vanessa Leone (29:49.502)
No, it’s not obvious at all. But it’s funny because it is a simple formula and it is so powerful and I think that we lose sight of that simplicity sometimes. And it is power and you can feel yourself shift if you’re open to it. Like…
Emma M (29:51.553)
No, no.
Vanessa Leone (30:15.04)
And every genre has a different response for people. And so we’re not telling you to go and listen to a certain style of music. the thing that I think maybe we also, you touched on just slightly is the emotional side of it, but it’s that nostalgia. It’s like songs that you have been exposed to that trigger memories of, like you said, good or bad or negative things, but in your formative years.
think it’s like 16 to 25. Those are the years. That’s the music that you listen to then. That’s the music that you’re going to love for the rest of your life. It’s the type of music that is going to inspire you and keep you coming back. then when you get old, you go to young people and say, ah, your music’s terrible. The music in my generation was the best music, blah, blah, blah, blah,
Emma M (30:57.774)
Yeah
already doing that. I’m already doing that for sure. There’s just so many remixes now. I’m like, oh, this is just a song that’s been remade from our era, like so many. Come on, on crew, get original.
Vanessa Leone (31:09.824)
Yeah.
It’s so funny, right? And I love that side of it. And I know for me that my choice in music, if I’m feeling frustrated or angry, I’ve go like full emo kid and slightly metal, you know what I mean? And, but I love it because you can hear the angst and the angreness in their voice. But for some people that’s never going to be their jam and they’ll on a hip hop song or whatever. And that’s not my jam.
Emma M (31:33.571)
Yeah.
Vanessa Leone (31:43.046)
And I love, like, I have no idea what shapes those preferences and I think neither do you, but I think that this is where when you’re trying to create habits of health and fitness, these little tools, like putting on songs that you resonate with, are hugely important and influential in whether you’re actually going to stick with what you’re doing.
Emma M (32:04.726)
Yeah, building like your top motivational playlist on Spotify would be such a great place to start if you’re feeling lacking in motivation. Songs that you just know make you want to get up and jump up and down or like hit the dance floor or sing at the top of your lungs, you know. I’m such a big advocate of that too. Like I did a 2000s classics cycle class last night actually. And it was such an eclectic playlist they put together because I know my members are very different, but also, you know, my taste, like I was listening to Britney Spears, but I also do love Evanescence.
and way that some of their songs make you feel and just scream out loud and get like anger out of the body, know, like so therapeutic. And so I think, yeah, being able to build a playlist that’s just gonna make you wanna get up and move if you’re lacking in motivation is such a great place to start because all you need to do then is just click on your Spotify, start listening, and then maybe that will actually inspire you to get up and start moving. So I think that’ll be
Vanessa Leone (32:55.712)
Mm. I love that. So let’s, let’s wind it back now. We’re going back, woo. So I think we’ve painted this picture now of how music is, is fundamental in bringing you an experience in movement that, that can change yourselves. They can change your biology. It changes your physiology, changes your emotion.
can do all of the above and we don’t know exactly how. Brilliant, love that. If someone has now been, okay, this is interesting, I maybe go to a sound healing, what’s happening in a sound healing? What are we doing? Tell us, tell us all about this space. I’m so interested.
Emma M (33:47.182)
So just repeat exactly what is that you want to know.
Vanessa Leone (33:51.177)
What, what, happens in a sound healing? Like, what can you expect? What is it? What is it? Yeah.
Emma M (33:55.69)
Yeah, okay. I think it’s very subtle. think it can definitely bring on emotions. Like we said, music and sound and resonance can start to do a couple of things, which actually I haven’t touched on another thing that it does. It does stimulate vagus nerve as well. So we’ve talked about that in breath work or even as simple as things as like humming can simulate vagus nerve, those sort of things, which again, vibration, resonance. So
When we listen to very specific tones and sounds that are creating great resonance and vibration through the body, so it will be doing a few things. If it is helping stimulate a vagus nerve, it will be bringing us into parasympathetic nervous system, which we talked about also happens with slow breathing. And naturally, if you’re going to lay down on a mat and start to calm the body, the breath will also slow. So there’s probably some kind of correlation there as well that both are happening simultaneously.
So you’re bringing your body into a real state of calm. And then we talked about how certain frequencies and sounds can change our brain waves too. So then we’re also going into that more relaxed state of mind. And so all of those things are kind of happening at once, right? We’re just coming into deep relaxation, brain waves are shifting, nervous system is shifting. And in turn, what that’s creating is a heap of safety for your body. And I think that’s the key thing to focus on any of these practices actually, especially when we start to down-regulate.
is that we’re fundamentally bringing the body into safety. And you might be like, but I feel safe, but the body might not feel safe, right? And when we’re constantly jacked up in our sympathetic nervous system, and I think we touched on this in the Breathwork Chat, you know, through things just like stress, everyday work emails, people, but not only that, coffee consumption, exercise that’s all high intensity without down regulation, stressful work meetings, kids, phones, the lot.
Vanessa Leone (35:46.058)
phones.
Emma M (35:49.344)
all of everything that’s going on in our world right now is creating this kind of like chronic state of sympathetic, in which case your body actually might not have been truly in parasympathetic for a really long time. So then you go along to something like a sound healing and you’re actually able to switch off, calm down, all of these little tools, slower breath, resonance, sound, all bringing you into this state of parasympathetic, but also safety, can actually
create this opening for your body to start to access emotion and stored stagnant feelings within the body. Much like breath work we talked about, we can activate certain areas that bring through emotions. Well, this can actually happen in this state as well because we’re bringing the body into safety and once the body feels safe, it feels safe to let go of anything it’s been holding on to. And so if there has been anything bubbling underneath the surface, emotions that you’ve been pushing away, things that you haven’t been dealing with in your mind.
these could be the times where that kind of moves through you. So you might get a little teary, you might feel certain emotions coming to the surface, you might have little thoughts or memories pop in and pop through. And that’s very normal in a breathwork because, sorry, no, sound healing, because that body has been given the chance to feel those things. But not necessarily and not always in the strength of a way as like a really powerful breathwork session.
Vanessa Leone (36:58.88)
Okay.
Emma M (37:12.142)
Other than that, you might just feel deep relaxation. Your body’s finally giving this place to rest. You might fall asleep. And I think that’s really important to mention. Never be frustrated with yourself if that happens. If you’re falling asleep during a sound healing, you really need it. So allow yourself that rest. Like how great that you just had this beautiful, peaceful state of rest for half an hour, 45 minutes an hour. So yeah, give yourself that.
Vanessa Leone (37:28.262)
Mm.
Emma M (37:40.126)
and just reap the benefits of being able to be in this calm state, even if it’s for a short period of time in your busy day.
Vanessa Leone (37:44.801)
I love how much this, the sound healing side of stuff is starting to permeate, you know, work culture and wellness culture. And we can go through that for people looking for practitioners, places, things like that. What, what are some key,
Emma M (37:56.855)
Yeah.
Vanessa Leone (38:12.704)
points that they should be looking out for when it comes to a practitioner or a place or a facility that is facilitating these kinds of sessions.
Emma M (38:23.31)
Yeah, mean, sound healing is a hard one because it’s not really governed. There are trainings and things like that, and there’s education to be sought after. But I also know that a lot of it is quite intuitive for lot of practitioners, you know, and they’re just kind of feeling into sounds and vibrations. I don’t think there’s like a way of getting it too wrong in that, that you’re not going to…
hurt anyone. There are certain contraindications that we can look at in terms of like making sure everybody feels safe to lie down and breathe and be on their backs for you know all those kind of amounts of time. But I think more than anything it’s going excuse the pun to someone that you resonate with you know because you’ve got to enjoy and feel safe in that that in that session right you want to be able to lie back and receive sound from someone that you trust and that you enjoy their music and you enjoy
the soundscape that they’re creating so that you can bring yourself into that level of safety. Because if you’re feeling distressed or you’re not resonating with that person or you’re not liking the sounds that they play and it’s actually jarring you in some way or making you feel unsafe, then obviously that’s not your practitioner, right? Because it’s going to be putting you into the opposite side of your nervous system. It’s going to jack you up into your sympathetic and you’re just going to lay there frustrated.
Vanessa Leone (39:43.86)
Hmm.
Emma M (39:43.992)
So I think, you know, go through recommendations, through friends, people that are highly sought after and have great reviews and in centers and spaces that have great reputations, I think that.
Vanessa Leone (39:57.178)
Mm. I think you touched on a really good point there was sound healing outside of breathwork. So let’s leave breathwork to the side because they often happen together, but just say outside of breathwork. It’s so safe. Right. It’s honestly, it’s so safe in terms of, yeah, you’re receiving sound and we receive sound, so many disjointed, jarring, horrible sounds all the time.
Emma M (40:06.402)
They do, yeah.
Emma M (40:23.554)
Yeah, yeah, it’s so true.
Vanessa Leone (40:27.328)
I’ve talked about this many times in the podcast, we’re so easy to accept that we take a pain relief medication over the counter, don’t even think about it. But that’s a drug that’s affecting your system and has quite a prolific risk profile, even if it’s considered to be perfectly safe. Yet something like sound healing does not have a prolific risk profile. Like you said, if you can lay down on the floor for 30, 40 minutes, an hour,
Emma M (40:45.656)
Yeah.
Vanessa Leone (40:55.818)
you’re probably going to be okay. It’s just whether or not you will, again, like the pun, resonate with the experience because, you know, again, lots of factors might come into play there. But I also think that sometimes that we can try to push to feel something rather than just, yeah, like rather than just be, yeah.
Emma M (41:18.03)
Yes, expectation.
Emma M (41:23.64)
allow, surrender. Yeah.
Vanessa Leone (41:26.346)
Correct. And like I have a few clients and if you’re listening to this, I love, I love you all dearly, but we just need to relax. It’s like the most common cue that I give them. It’s not turn on it’s breathe, relax, drop the shoulders, reduce tension, shake it out. Like you don’t need that much tension. And I think the same thing happens when we enter in these spaces because
Emma M (41:35.448)
Yeah.
Vanessa Leone (41:52.724)
We are unsure about them or we’re a little bit nervous or anything like that. But that risk profile is so low. Like you listen to music all the time. This is the same thing. And I can’t encourage people more to start to see that contradiction of society, of what we actually think is safe versus what actually really is safe.
Emma M (42:18.306)
get that, you know, I think that’s why I think once you are willing to go into these spaces, things like breath work or even movement before sound healing can be really beneficial because definitely what I witness is we’re so chronically sympathetic that when we ask somebody to just lay down and chill and breathe, that is extremely hard for them to be able to do that, right? Their mind is racing, there’s anxiety, there’s stress, there’s tension physically in the body, like you said.
And so then to say, okay, lay down and be still. Well, and they’re laying down, but the mind’s still going and the body’s still wanting to fidget and move and the eyes are open and they’re looking around. Like I’ve seen a lot in clients, right? It’s just this inability just to drop in. And so being able to discharge that excess energy first through something like a sympathetic breath or movement is actually brilliant because what that does is kind of discharges some of that energy first.
It’s almost like you’re tiring the brain out a little bit, right? Tiring the body, tiring that nervous energy out, expelling it first to then drop into sound healing, can actually feel like this really beautiful transition because then it’s like, okay, now I can breathe slow. Now I can drop into a state of relaxation and I can actually drop in. And what’s happening there is it’s this beautiful moment where you’re actually able to drop into parasympathetic.
And so I think that’s if somebody’s listening that are like, just can’t, I can’t meditate. I can’t be still. That doesn’t resonate with me. I can’t lay down for an hour and listen to sound. Try teaming it with something. So if that is a local sort of breath and sound where they’re to use a bit of upregulated breath first to then drop you in. I’ve seen some real magic happen in those moments because it’s like, my God, the body finally let’s go. You know, it’s like, there it is. It was able to dispel a lot of that.
Vanessa Leone (43:41.376)
Mmm.
Emma M (44:09.518)
a lot of that tension first or even like things like dance or whatever, dance into a sound healing, just that ability to drop into the body before having to like calm the mind is really cool.
Vanessa Leone (44:21.852)
Mm-hmm. Funnily enough, I see it with my clients and it’s just, like you said, you work out, you dispel that energy, that frustration, whatever it might be, anxiety. Anxiety is just your body’s urge to take action. That’s really what anxiety is. And so if you have anxiety, you need to take action. There needs to be some kind of follow through and movement, breath, they’re such beautiful
actions to be able to take to help, like you said, get rid of that. I absolutely love that advice. I think that it’s, that it’s beautiful and it’s, it’s so good. For someone wanting to create powerful soundtracks, let’s call them soundtracks, for their movement. Do you have any recommendations of like where we could start or like
Emma M (45:08.398)
Mmm.
Vanessa Leone (45:16.82)
different types of playlists or something like that that you would think of.
Emma M (45:22.23)
for just somebody wanting to create a playlist for themselves to move to. Spotify is honestly just the best platform in the world, isn’t it? I think I’ve danced between so many, the accessibility of music there is so vast. And there’s just such great ways of accessing other people’s music and other people’s playlists to give you some creative base to start your own journey. And so you can literally type anything in Spotify. You could type in like,
Vanessa Leone (45:25.514)
Yeah, why not? Yeah.
Vanessa Leone (45:45.792)
Mmm.
Emma M (45:51.406)
I want to get crazy playlist and someone would have built one. So you can find so much music and then you can also store all the friends that you have. You can link your social media with your Spotify, follow everybody and then on the right-hand side on the desktop setting of Spotify, you can see what all of your friends are listening to. So again, inspiration for you to build your own playlists. There’s just no limit to how many you build and make and you can create a playlist for every mood in the world.
cry and sleep on my bed and have tears rolling down playlists, you can create that. Or like, I want to go out for a run. You can create the I’m falling in love playlist. I’m going on a road trip playlist. There’s everything there for you, right? I just think music is such this beautiful therapeutic tool. And if you haven’t really started to delve into it in this way, just start. know, pour yourself a beverage, sit down and start exploring.
music and noticing how it makes you feel. And I think that’s the most important thing. Like maybe, you know, put some headphones on, pick somebody else’s playlist, lay down and just notice the emotive response you get when you’re listening to the songs. And if it’s a positive one, great, pop that in your playlist, you know. If it’s a negative one, you’re that feels jarring. That doesn’t feel nice. That doesn’t motivate me. Skip it. You know, that’d be a great place to start building from, I reckon.
Vanessa Leone (47:13.716)
That’s awesome. I like it a lot. Amazing. Emma, love this. I wish we could go 10 times deeper into music, but we don’t have any more time. Is there anything else that you wanted to add before we finish up for this beautiful session?
Emma M (47:15.224)
Hehehe.
Emma M (47:23.758)
I love it.
Emma M (47:31.606)
No, I think it’s just allow music to be the magical tool that it is. Like, as I said, there’s so much we don’t know about why music affects us in such a positive way. And so I just think bring that into your conscious awareness. Next time you listen to a song and you’re jamming along, actually notice, wow, it makes me feel like this. Or next time you’re in a class or next time you’re listening to a song that is helping you get through something, just appreciate it for its magic. So I think it’s one of those things that we take so for granted.
And yeah, is this magical thing that we have that I would be very, very sad for doubt.
Vanessa Leone (48:08.754)
Yes, I agree. Hands down, agree. Love it. I love your work. I can’t wait to eventually come and do another sound healing with you. Thank you so much, and I’ll speak to you soon.
Emma M (48:22.136)
Bye my love.
Vanessa Leone Movement Therapist 